When you leave this earth, try to leave it how you’d like to find it yourself.

$700B spent in the US on banks, how much to convert Area 51 into a giant solar array, rather than just a landing pad for aliens?

A pimple.

MPT

your assuming that the 500bn has been spent.. as in its disapeared or been used up. which clearly is not the case if the government is buying banks assets, there is a good chance a profit will be made on a least some of the debt tranches. Have to agree tho, investment in hydrogen infrastructure and nuclear power to provide it is the only plan that makes sense if you understand the figures.

Everyone keeps banging on about how you could make a all fuel cell car or a new radical engine design but. The fact of the matter is. If we all switched to something like the pruis or buy a new honda hydrogen car, everyone would get so depressed and miserable because life would be full of boredom. So PLEASE if there is 1 last thing in the world keep to Super unleaded.

I’ve always believed hydrogen is the way forward. But do they use liquid or gas? I forget.

And if you think it’s a silly price / just for rich people, remember this: petrol cars started out as such, until someone mass-produced one. At the moment though the only hydrocar costs $1,000,000 to buy. But, in a few years, with determination in the right places, it could work, and the technology will eventually be cheaper too. It’ll happen.

Tom TG, not if someone makes a fun one.

To Economist: Yes, you’re right, the £500m hasn’t gone down a bottomess pit. We taxpayers have bought into the banks, or loaned them money in some cases, and we’ll get it back all being well. But my point is that infrastructure investments are the same. We put in money, and we get it back as economic gain some years later.

To Tom TG: honestly mate, cars powered by electric motors can be bloody good fun. The Tesla is fab, and it’s not unique. It doesn’t matter whether the electricity for the motor is stored on-board in a battery or generated on-board by a fuel cell (or even an engine) the fact is electric traction is strong and instantaneous. The Prius is dull for other reasons.

Most of my driving is the daily boring commute. The drive to work, at four in the morning, is a wonderful thing that reminds me how much fun a car can be & the drive home is the usual slow procession stuck behind a lorry in a queue of traffic. I would love to have two cars, one to have fun in & an electric/hybrid for the normal stuff, but life doesn’t work that way!

These new generation cars need to be more accomplished in all areas, rather than focusing solely on the ‘green’ issues to really impact on the average driver.

Great fuel cells great, green fuel etc one question what do you need to make hydrogen???? energy! which comes from fossil fuels (unless you have nuclear aka france or hydro power) so it might have zero co2 ex car but that is replaced by more co2 from hydrogen production ditto electric cars nothing is cheaper then petrol!

Hello mcar – ‘nothing is cheaper than petrol’ you say. Not quite. I drove a Tesla very fast for about 100 miles last week, on about £1 worth of electricity. A 911 driven at that speed would have used about £30 of petrol. I know petrol is taxed, but even so that’s a big difference. You’re right that at the moment most electricity comes from fossil fuel, but it need not. If we invested in wave or tidal power. The technology exists.

Paul, i see you point. lots of things are cheaper than petrol. but if all cars ran on electricity, they whould manage 2 yards! the Mini E however can run for 150miles which is impressive and it has 200 bhp which enables it to go from 0-60 in 8.5seconds! But it takes 8 hours to charge it up! im sure most people haven’t got a powerstation for a mini E on their drive and they wouldn’t leave it in one over night. Thats the problem with electric cars, they either can drive for an incredibly short period of time or take a decade to charge up. at least their are very economic cars on the market, such as the new ford fiesta ECOnetic or the seat ibiza ECOmotive which can manage a combined mpg of over 70mpg! and are cheap to insure and the best thing of all, they are tax free!

PetrolHead 247: Yup, range is an issue if you want to take a car for 150 miles.

As it happens that’s how I use cars so I wouldn’t get on with electric cars. I live in a city but get around by pushbike because parking is such an arse. I use a car mostly only for long journeys. But I’m in the minority. Most people hardly ever go more than 150 miles in a day, so they can happily just charge up overnight.

Another reason I wouldn’t get an electric car: I have no parking space, so I’d be trailing an extension cord down the street.

But as I say I’m in the minority. There are an awful lot of two-car households in this country who have a driveway or garage and whose smaller car is used solely for commuting. Within a few years (as better batteries get cheaper) that car could easily be replaced by something like the electric Mini.

Paul; I agree with you that in the future their will be loads more electric cars. but in todays world the modern diesel engine is the way forward. if you buy, lets say a seat eco thingy, you will save a hell of a lot of money, especially in the long term. even great big huge audi estates with a 2.0 TDI engine can do 50 mpg, which is very impressive for a car weighting the same as MT.Fuji! So i predict that there is going to be a HUGE increase in the sales of small cars, especially ones with a diesel engine.

I think hydrogen would be the way to go, electric cars dont help with “global warming”, they just add to the pollution and push the blame on the electric companies which make power by burning coal and natural gas… Sure, there are renewable power plants, but not enough to power a world full of electric cars. Plus, what are you going to do with the car when you’re done with it? If you want to kill the world, put it in the dump!

Ben G, you’re right that electric cars ‘push the pollution’ onto the power station. But not too badly. Here’s why. A petrol car turns about 20 percent of the energy in the fuel into actual motion. A diesel is better – maybe 30 percent. But a power station is far more efficient. It can turn about 60 percent of the energy in fossil fuel into electricity, and an elactric car can make use of about 80 percent of that.

So in the overall chain of efficiency, electric cars do about twice as well as piston-engined cars even if the electricity comes from fossil fuel.

Better still, electric cars are usually charged up at night, when electricity demand is low. So we can plug in a load of electric cars and still not increase the peak load on the electricity grid. This makes good use of renewable electricity.

I’m not saying electric cars are the answer yet. But you hear all sorts of objections to them that don’t actually stand up to scrutiny.

“Sorry, you can only go a few hundred miles then you have to stop, and put flammable liquid in your car, right behind your bum? Seriously, what if you catch fire? Does it explode often?”

When the electric car was first pushed out of production by the petrol car it was mainly down to range and well, range. Pollution didn’t matter at that time.

Today, pollution will place electric on top again and to Paul’s point; the Tesla kicks bottom, I’ve driven the 2-speed locked in second and it still kicks bum! You might even argue that performance will end the petrol car; who wants a car with gears and stuff that can’t even crack a sub 4 second 0-60? Here’s a challenge; do ten 0-60 runs <4 seconds in a Tesla and a GT3… see who still has the clutch left to do the 11th?

The problem is that range is still the issue blocking electric deployment; not because it’s a show-stopper but because it places a mental cap in many minds, one that petrol doesn’t. The “what if I need to do 245 miles one day?” question. Fair enough; I have two cars, the Tesla will replace my daily driver, I do 30-50 miles per day, very occasionally, I’ll drive up to Canadia; 1,000 miles; then I’ll take the petrol car, might even consider hiring a car for the trip, something tasty perhaps. Net-net, that’s 300+ days/year on battery, two on petrol.

We’ve already started work on new lithium batteries with a much denser cathode which delivers 5x storage, if we can do that with the anode, another 5x then, imagine my Tesla; it takes all bloody weekend to charge but then runs for over 2000 miles. “Sorry, you can only go a few hundred miles then you have to stop, and put flammable liquid in your car, right behind your bum? Seriously, what if you catch fire? Does it explode often?” How daft would that concept sound then?

Ok, so this is the future, but it doesn’t start without a start, a drive to improve the power infrastructure, to invest in solar farms in Area 51, so I’ll selflessly skint myself for a Tesla and start sending the message… and, yes, I am waiting for applause, thank you.

Ben G: Don’t forget to include the pollution created by the infrastructure moving the fuel to the filling station which alone exceeds power station waste.

MPT

I agree that electric cars may be more efficient and with less CO2 emissions (although I don’t really care about that) than petroleum powered cars.

However, hydrogen powered cars are a different matter. Although fuel cells are a proven technology (after all they did help take us to the moon) that doesn’t mean that they are an economically viable technology. One of the most common ways of creating hydrogen is by the electrolysis of water. Unfortunately this still requires electricity produced from fossil fuel power plants, so what’s the point? There are other production techniques being explored, but none of them can produce hydrogen economically. Until we find a way (if we ever do), it doesn’t matter how much money the government throughs into hydrogen research and production, using hydrogen powered vehicles will only be a money pit. It makes more sense to use nuclear power, along with the already existing power grid, to power a country full of electric cars.

I really cant understand why people still say ‘oh but you need electricity to get the hydrogen’ and assume this has to come from fossil fuel power stations. The answer was found decades ago. Nuclear power to provide the spinning capacity and a gradual ramp up of renewables use. Then you get emissions free transport. yes and bury the nuke waste under australia, thats where it came from anyway. problem solved.

Chem.Eng. has a point that the most efficient and environmentally sensible plan would be to use the existing infrastructure i.e. power grid. Electric cars would then be far more efficient as no new fuel (hydrogen) grid has to be built.
As s of p. puts above green renewable electricity need spinning capacity, power stations on tickover for when the wind stops etc. Nuclear would fill this gap. Saving up for a tesla.

Has anyone else seen that Mini with 4 wheel motors that does 0-60 in 4 seconds and supposedly has several hundred miles of range? It uses no hydraulic brakes either, the wheels motors double as electromagnetic brakes with regenerative braking, ABS and even traction control. It supposedly makes 600hp at the wheels, and has a tiny generator and an engine to drive it in case it runs low on juice. The batteries are lithium polymer and supposedly the newest variant. I forget the name of the company, but the car was a technology demonstrator. It was a British company if it helps.

I’d also like to say that electricity is just a fuel, and it is a very flexible fuel in how it can be generated. You could have a 100% solar electric car if you had a solar panel array on top of your garage and 2 or 3 sets of batteries. While you are out at work, the panels charge the batteries. When you get home, all you do is switch the battery pack for a charged one and there you have it. A solar car system with the panels not being an integral part of the vehicle. There is also a new solar technology coming up that is 30% efficient and can be sprayed onto a surface like a car body. This could be used as an additional efficiency to charge the car and add a bit of range. The downside is that it is comprised of carbon nanotubes which are not exactly a common substance yet.

Ref Telsar £1 pd of electricity and only £95,000 to buy ! Electricity production in the uk : Oil – 1%
Gas – 39%
Nuclear – 19.5%
Imports – 2%
Renwables – 5%
Coal 33.5%

Even if all the wind farms are built (alot won’t be due to finance and oil co withdrawal)and tide etc rewables will increase to 10 pct and the wind still needs to blow! this country and has switched 99% to road transport for goods how will electricity power all those cars trucks etc where will the power come from? where will all the batteries come from are batteries pollution free? PS electricty production in this country is barely keeping up with current demand we have to import from france and our new nuclear stations will take 15-20 years to build hence why government allowing new coal power stations. we will import 50% of LNG by 2015 so not much hope there either. Today opec cut oil production by 1.5 mpd and oil price fell 4 dollars petrol now 94p per litre, high performace cars are bargains. The good news is eventuly some one some where will come up with a alternative fuel for planes,trains,cars and power stations not to mention plastic and clothing production but it wont happen in my life time or even my childrens lifetime so enjoy driving petrol performace cars while petrol and cars and so cheap aka 4 year range rover 12 k, range rover sport s/c 2 yrs old 20 k, bmw m3 35 k, m6 32 k, etc etc etc

hate, to piss on your fire, Paul, but unfortunately, there is not currently the technology to store hydrogen safely for transportation. Plus all the terrorism and stuff, and just isn’t feasible atm.
As Jeremy said a couple of series back, the person who invents the technology will be a squillionaire.

To take it to the extreme – You could make a nuclear power plant the same size as the hydrogen tank that wouldn’t blow up if run over by a Poruguese Lorry driver and would last for 10 years.
Seriously!! The change from leaded petrol to unleaded has cost many lives, just because the flash point is so much lower. Manufacturers could easily avoid this be installing an aluminium mesh in tanks like they do in most aircraft – British RAF Hercules excepted!!!
It’s driven my profit and greed not need – Ever seen a poor politician???

How much electricity is there today?

I’d like to get a handle on how weak our electricity infrastructure is. In the US, in summer, power outages are popular around 6pm; everyone comes home and switches on the A/C. They’re between 1 and 3KW loads each. The Tesla on full draw is 17.6KW (220v @ 80A).

I think that if 25% of motorists switch to plug-in electric, 100% of everyone will be in the dark. I think it’s better in the UK, apart from the 70’s I don’t remember any power cuts.

Does anyone know the average power consumption that the power companies use to size generation and delivery? And, how would an army of battery cars at night compare to the load the power companies supply during the day?

Interestingly; given 10 hours of charging a day a Tesla with a better battery could only get about 650 miles worth of electricity in.

MPT

to catersam: On-board hydrogen storage is expensive at the mo, but it certainly isn’t impossible. I’ve driven dozens of hydrogen-fuelled prototypes, and there are test fleets of hundreds on the road. They don’t have armed escorts: they are safe. As safe as a petrol tank anyway.

to MPT (comment 25) Sure a Tesla draws a high current, but it usually does it at night when the general grid in California has loads of spare capacity.

There is a problem with Hydrogen that is not well publicised.
If we go to mass use of Hyrdogen then a lot will escape into the air. During production, at the pump, through the safety valve and on disposal etc. H combines rapidly with any OH molecules in the air and strips them out as water vapour. Normally rain drops form around dust in the atmosphere and after a rain storm you can see the air is cleaner. With hydrogen the drops will form chemically and leave the dust in the atmosphere. Dust = poluution, dirty air is global warming in another way.

Sorry guys, back to the drawing board. But. Didn’t England rule the waves and half the world with sailing ships and carthorses? Oats futures anyone?

It is easier than you think. Firstly, work out the amount that car companies have invested in hydrogen fuel cell cars. Using that number realise how much they need hydrogen fuel pumps. If supermarket X, turned one of their pumps into a hydrogen fuel pump and showed its price next to the other fuels, with lots of posters and advertising telling you how it is cheaper and explaining that it will become even cheaper unlike petrol which will become more expensive. If supermarket X, says to car dealers A, B and C: ‘if you pay for us to do the conversion and pay or expenses for the change (which will be smallish) then we will advertise your hydrogen fuel cell cars you invested so much in at our pumps tellin the public how much cheaper they are’. Then supermarket X makes some very good long term deals with suppliers who need someone to start buying at a very good price. Then they set it up. Supermarket X makes lots of money. Car dealers A, B and C make lots of money. And our fuel bills will be reduced.

that 700billion from america is not really going to the bailout, the first bill that failed and didnt make the vote was because ACORN was going to get 20% of the money, now how those loonies who obama works for why they need that money i have no idea, but thank god it didnt pass, the 2nd bill did pass. but still lots of it didnt go where its needed. everyone takes a peice as it goes down the road. and there will be a 2nd propsal for alot more cash to bail out the banks who customers failed to keep there part of the mortage agreement cause it was better for them to not pay there mortages on homes that went down in value. all them billions of dollars could of gone into something useful like free beer, fish and chips for everyone while the world goes into a depression for a few years. now that would of been better and easier for most. way more major companies are going to go bankrupt and some will be bailed out, and that alone will make it easier for CEO’s to take the rist of jumping ship hoping to get saved and saving them alot of coins. all that bailout money could of been useful and helped make the world independent on fossil fuels for the regular man, but i somehow suspect that theres alot of people who dont want hydrogen to succeed just yet while there making to much money from other means of energy.

I say GO FOR IT! Bring me the Future already, you’ll make up whatever it costs later in new care sales and shiny new conversion sets for every corner gas station in the west. Culturally, Europe still leads the world’s style, so show up the Americans. They’ll want to be all chic and stylish, so they’ll copy what you do. Before you know it, the shi-shi culture shall be leading the way to environmental conservation just as the Hollywood hipsters embraced the Prius and made it fashionable for Joe the Plumber to drive home. Go for it.

Why does everyone keep banging on about hydrogen fuel cell cars when electric cars have already been developed. The EV1 series of cars produced in California adhered to the zero emissions laws, ran for over 200 miles between charges and had a top speed comparable to anything regularly available at the time.
Governments and oil companies want us to use hydrogen because it keeps the structure the same, we still depend on them for providing fuel (just substitute petrol for hydrogen)and we continue to pay tax on it. Whereas with pure electrical technology (technology which is available today and needs no new infrastructure in place) we would be able to charge our cars from home outlets and the pressure would be on them to find cleaner ways to generate power.

To see what i mean about the electric car see this film.

http://www.moviesfoundonl ine.com/who_killed_the_el ectric_car.php

hey am paul just got a citroen x piccasso

hey were the jack in the citreon x piccasso

Well I think it is a rather good investment, and it makes an excellent argument for how we have lost sight of the real important things.

I say we should let them go bankrupt, since wealth is so poorly distributed in the world. In all honesty, the people that are making the biggest fuzz about this crisis, are the people who have millions in the banks, not the average person with a decent income.

Essentially, we need to stop paying CEOs of those firms that are raking in money like leaves in the fall, and spend on things that would actually generate jobs for everyone. Plus, with hydrogen being relatively cheap to obtain, no one would care to drive anything big, powerful, and fast. I mean look at the scorpion supercar, and that will give you a good idea.

the term supercar does not really sound right when looking at the scorpion yeh it might run for ages on little more than a liter of fuel but when you actually buy a supercar such as an enzo or veyron the last thing your going to say is by the way how many miles does this do as well as if you have to explain what the car is and what it does its just a bit uncool.
Plus if we let all the big companies fall theres little chance for any of these new hy-brid cars and new supercars being built as many of them are backed by big companies.
Anyway does anyone know of the new model that will replace the pagani zonda? ive been saving my pocket money i recken i can just about afford a wing mirror

Paul

http://www.claverton-ener gy.com/energy-research-fo rum/showthread.php?t=60

Might be useful?

Why does the price of petrol and diesel differ between the North and South of England surely it is all the the same fuel from the same suppliers?

Petrol is more expensive in the south because they have deeper pockets and more expensive in the north because the tanker drivers have to be bilingual.

Hydrogen conspiracy theory; I suspect that hydrogen fuel is a time waster invented by the auto industry to delay the end of petrol car sales past the point where the current auto industry execs are due to retire… does it not seem as though it’s always “about 15-30 years”.

MPT

Did anyone consider the most blatantly obvious solution? Try not using a car. It works fine. I can’t drive and I’ve always coped. Spend £1000 on a seriously good push bike another £200-300 on some seriously good waterproofs security kit etc. and you’re still £several thousand better off and there’s no insurance, tax, repairs or FUEL. If you need to go further, take a train. Or a bus.

Not sure if i should say this, but I just went on a 1 week car tour through Wales and Scotland, and you can’t do that on a bicycle… not in the recent weather anyway… No waterproof gear can keep you from being blown into the bushes from gale force wind.

And have you check the train ticket prices lately? For that same cost it cost me to go round Wales and Scotland, I could probably fly somewhere warm and sunny.

Totally agree with this article. We are surrounded of free energy, but we still use gas. Incredible!

MacDawn, if everyone stopped wasting their money on cars then the trains would be able to be cheaper, ‘cos the government wouldn’t be spending its money on roads. Also, you could try touring during a reasonable season, like summer. And to Men’s Option, we waste the free energy because its not free. Wind turbines aren’t exactly cheap. Neither are PV cells and nuclear definitely isn’t.

The purchase of and day to day use of cars bring money into the government. Considerably more than what they then spend on roads. Do you honestly think that if we all stopped buying cars then the government would start subsidising our train travel where would the money come from exactly?

I’m guessing you live in a town or city freddy. Where I live its a 25mile commute to work with no trains and a bus thats runs once a week. It takes around 45 minutes by car. If I cycled i’d be better off camping at work.

well that’s just proof of how ridiculous modern life is. People used to work where they lived. A 45 minute commute in a car just says your job’s in the wrong place. Or your house.

Everybody’s gone gaga over profit so we end up with 700 channels of merd tv and rubbish overpriced services, we need enthusiasts running the world not money men. A good invention will sell, as will well written and performed tv.

It’s about damn time. The way i see it we don’t have any choice. Not just from an environment point of view. But from a car-lover point of view. At the moment cars are getting worse to drive becuase of vain attempts to make them “green”. With a new fuel source we can start all over again!! How cool will that be huh? Not having to give a damn about emissions, fuel mileage, or how loud engines are. Car companies can go wild and create the most awesome machines imaginable (before somebody finds legislation to stop them)…we really could be entering a golden age of the motor car

The future: electric cars, hydrogen cars, hybrid cars… sincerly if this means the die of petrol engines screaming to the rev limiter… the die of such an orgams sound, it’s like to drive a Ferrari and change it for a diesel low powered minivan. I’d rather get a bus.

I agree with freddy,the modern world is ridiculous. The most obvious solution to the fuel and emissions problems is to stop using a form of transport that is extremely wasteful and start trying to live without cars.

This 11 MW solar powerstation creates enough totally carbon emission free power for 6000 homes. No un-friendly regimes can cut off or raise the cost of the Sun’s energy supply. This has to be the future. Imagine how many of these could be built for the millions wasted recently…

Now where is my Spanish villa and my Fisker Karma… (I am #675 on their order books, delivery end 2010…)

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/h i/science/nature/6616651. stm

did it ever occur to you SUTSKI that we need matter as well as energy, so even if we sort out the energy, we still have a minor problem in that iron, silicon, wood and pretty much everything else we need will run out. For instance, the chinese are mining waste dumps for plastic and gold ‘cos its cheaper than mining or making it because we’ve used SO much and just thrown it away. So yep, solar power looks awesome, but it still leaves a few, teensy tiny problems.

Its called living in the countryside. Unfortunately house prices are pushed up by those who earn high wages and commute to london. In order to afford to stay in a village you need to work in the bigger towns. Or are you suggesting that we should all move into the towns and leave the villages for only the rich.

well i hope it happens, hydrogen powered cars would be much better and with petrol going up it’ll be heaps cheaper in the long run anyway.

Paul, I think the electric car has a future on the back of global warming here in Switzerland. A friend of mine is an energy consulatant and ha built an energy friendly house. It has two sets of solar panels, one for hot water and heating the other for electricity generation.

She is able to add to supply her house needs and add the surplus to the local grid. Even better, she has an electric Peugeot 106, charged solely by the solar panels covering 12 square metres on the roof.

Perfomance is not bad, given she lives just below Crans-Montana and has to drive down to the Valais floor and back ….. Just need some inspiration and solutions abound.

Woah steady on Bob, I know I’m good, but solving all the worlds resources probs would take me more than a single paragraph; I was only curing the worlds oil addiction with my previous comment.

Of course there are other resource shortages that will play an ever bigger roll in the coming years…lets just hope we can develop solutions that are not territorial (just like the sun)…that should stop all the fuel wars too.

haha, so if melting icecaps show more water which absorbs more heat, then if there were shit loads of mirrors on all the deserts, as per the Spanish Solar Tower, would that also reflect the sun and cool us down…. I guess I just solved global warming too Bob. Anything else ?

To SUTSKI; obviously you have never seen the Simpsons double episode ‘Who shot Mr Burns’, otherwise you wouldn’t make the comment on regime cutting you off from the sun . In all fairness though you are right, we (earth) live near one of the most efficient and abundant fusion reactors we can think off (the Sun), and all we need is for technology to catch up so we can harvest that energy more efficiently. How we use that energy is a secondary issue; using it directly to charge batteries is easier from an infrastructue point of view but requires us to wait for charging. Using it to make Hydrogen will require adapting infrastructure, but eliminates the need for charging. Only time will tell which technology is easier to develop, but both have merit. It is clear to me that the days of fossil fuels are numbered, better engines and diesel technology will stretch it but it is inevitable that one day we need to think of something else. And all it needs it the courage and the will to do it…

Hey Kwyjibo: No I haven’t, but:

“Burns then reveals to Smithers his grandest scheme: the construction of a giant, movable disk that will permanently block out the sun in Springfield, forcing the residents to continuously use the electricity from his nuclear power plant”.

Too funny, quote thanks to wikipedia !! haha

The reason most people don’t want to change fuels is that it may stop them from using their much loved cars, but have no fear, retro is always catered for. I still play my N64 today even though it was made in a world of CRT TVs, non-surround sound and boxy graphics, so too will you be able to run your petrol powered super car from petrol made using solar energy and water in a world of hydrogen or electric cars. The project is in development and I think this is is the only real way to stop global warming and boost the economy.
Alternative fuels are the future but right now we need less co2 and more oil so let’s speed up development and see if we can pause climate change, while men in sheds work out how to mass produce a clean alternative energy.

I have been reading in the new edition of TG mag
about the forthcoming chevvy volt.
Sure im a petrolhead, but this car makes sence.
It,s green,has a electric only range that suits my daily commute of 25 miles and looks good to.
If i could cut my motoring costs down, be green and have a good looking 150 bhp car the play in then that sounds good to me.
Cant wait till the roadtests hit the mag.

Dean

I agree the volt is the key link in development, A electric car that seems like any other car seeing as you fill it with petrol like normal plus you can get really cheap local milage, plus the volt type setup could be adapted to use a hydrogen fuel cell instead of a petrol engine, theoretically, once we set up hydrogen fill up points

YOu don;t need Hydrogen fuel cells.. You just need water Hydrogen On Demand technology is here and in my car…

See this for example a 40Mpg 450 Bhp sports car!!
http://blog.wired.com/car s/2008/11/the-40-mpg-450. html

I with H2,

Grab yourself a canister with water, add some 316l steel and some baking soda and your away.

HHO hydrogen on demand pumping into your air intake, improving your emmissions, fuel econmomy and torque.

Now a few more major tweaks and you can do what Stanley Meyers did in teh ninetiew run your car on just plain old water.

Hydrogen as you see it here is a big ploy to keep shell and bp sucking up the dollars and the tech way off into teh future.

Hydrogen Burns, it powers the sun and we;ve got boffins here trying to use it to capture 15% efficiency generating electricity from it!!.. Ha this stuff is more powerful than Nitros Oxide in your car, long live the hydrogen combustion engine…

OMG! H2Go, that’s that Scorpion that TG deemed impossible and never-happening a few months ago!

Dunno about hydrogen cars. If it’s gas it takes a huge volume in the boot and the whole thing will blow up like hell should it get in touch with air. And it’s still rather expensive to build a H2-powered car.
However it looked quite convincing when tested even a few years ago. I remember the hydrogen 7-series which ran, as they told, quite well.

I just found out that a company called smartveg can make almost any diesel car run on veg oil.

Why has nothing been said about combination alternative fuels?
Sure plugin electrics work for some people, hybrid electrics work for others doing more distance, hydrogen will be another choice, and standard diesel/petrol will still be arround for those who can’t afford the latest whizzy motor.

But there is nothing at all to stop even petrol/diesel users from doing their bit too.
We know older diesels can quite often run a mix of filtered waste veg oil without issue.
We know that newer diesel can run blends of biodiesel.
And many petrol cars would be converted to easily run ethanol/petrol blends (E85 at the extreme end).
There is also the option to run butonal/petrol mix upto 85% butanol too, with less conversion, or LPG for very clean burning of a waste product and actual better performance than the petrol equivalent if the engine is actually optimised for LPG instead of petrol in a dual fuel vehicle.

An one thing I have heard nothing about. Algal or green crude.
Special strains of Algae with high oil content. That can live on foul water, cleaning it as they grow.
That breathe in CO2 from industrial plants, and produce oxygen.
That don’t need farm land to grow, and produce 20-30 times the oil yield of a cereal oil crop.
A fuel source that can grow on waste ground, living in tanks cleaning waste water and filtering polluted air, but can be converted into a suitable substitute to both diesel and petrol.

But it seems to be the realms of quacks and crackpots at the moment.
The only place taking it seriously it appears is the Czech replublic, which has an experimental incinerator plant project going. The CO2 from the incerator feeds an algae farm, which is processed into diesel, which feeds the refuse trucks, which pick up the crap, which feeds the incinerator and makes a full lifecycle. The left over dried remains of each crop of algae also go into the incinerator as fuel to reduce the waste, and reduce landfill without serious financial punitive measures to the home owner. They hope eventually to produce enough algal fuel that as well as running the refuse trucks they can power the local taxis and other public vehicles on peoples garbage too.

what would you think it will be the best idea for a petrolem company to have for the whole network, to diferenciatte from the other companies in the field? something to implement in the filling station etc..
Untill having alternative energy on a large scale, how can the company step into the future?

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